NUhopeful2010 (2009 – 2010)

I see you are in Charlotte. I'm in Asheville and was wondering whether you studied with a local tutor/test prep company. If not, do you have any pointers for preperation? I'm wanting to break into 95th percentile and am testing 168+ right now on practice tests. Best – W Graves

I went through about 50 tests worth of LSATs in an 8 month time frame. After about 5 tests I was religiously timing my sections.

I tend to perform significantly better on test days than I do in practices though (happened with the SAT, ACT, SAT II's).

LSAC offers 2 books of 10 practices and another "guide" with 3 tests. I went through all of those plus about 20 real LSATs from recent years. By the time I was finished I was able to recognize basically anything LSAC tends to throw at people.
I didn't stop going through practices until I was consistently getting 180s and 179s (I think I had 5 180s in a row on practices before taking the actual test).

Just be careful to time yourself,though I was significantly under time on the actual exam. I was able to really examine the "trickier" questions because I'd gotten so much quicker and accurate about the "obvious" ones.

Pointers:
Usually in each section the hardest questions are from 16-25... (and scattered throughout that range with easy/hard questions)
Be sure to draw quick, but accurate tables in the analytical reasoning sections. Spending 45 seconds drawing a table will increase your speed and accuracy by a large margin when answering the questions.
Reading comp and logic games were always easy for me (when I was starting out I think the worst I did was miss 2 questions on those sections), so I suggest spending time perfecting your analytical reasoning... most people fall apart on that section (though I almost never miss any questions in that section now) – NUhopeful2010

You should send an application to Michigan. I think they may bite with your LSAT, with $$ perhaps. – mgoblue08

I have spoken to admission officers regarding usual cases like yours (e.g. The Dean of UCLA Admissions). I suggest you retake the LSAT to get a 180. To be honest, you do not have a chance at a Top 50 law school because your GPA is so low. There are other people with higher GPA and equivalent scores. Granted your LSAT is very high, I would suggest you apply to Southwestern Law School or Loyola Marymount. This way you would at least have a couple of safety schools. As it stands right now, I don't think any of the schools on your list will accept you. The lowest most top law schools will go is 2.8 and that is if you are Native American. You are basically pulling the equivalent C+ for your four years of college. If you can pull a 180, then you can make your case stronger because it shows that the aptitude is there, and chance a person scores a 180 is 3 in 10,000. I wish you the best of luck, don't get too bummed if you get rejected from all Top 25. – UCLALawStudent

I've seen a lot of people get admitted to top 10 schools with worse GPAs and LSATs (both together).

I'm probably not going to retake the LSAT for any reason.

I suggest you look around this website and a few law school forums, people with 2.2's and 165 get into top 25 law schools more often than not. Basically the chances of me not getting into a top 25 are lower than the chances of a 160/4.0 getting into a top 25 (statistically).

If you actually talked to the dean of admissions there (which I doubt you did), UCLA is probably the worst example as they don't value LSAT scores nearly as much as places like NU or GULC do.
California is notorious for denying people with high LSATs and "moderate" GPAS (like 3.2s). I don't want to go there though, so it's fine by me.

Do you think most lower ranked T-14 schools would be quick to dismiss a 99.9% score because of a moderately low GPA from top 5 ranked school? LSAT scores of students correlate far more to ranks on US News than GPA... In fact it's basically a stairstep down every single rank... but GPA can fluctuate wildly.

I suggest you do some more research before offering misguided advice – NUhopeful2010

I think you have a solid chance at NU. Do you have any work experience? If so, I think you're pretty much in with that LSAT score (lets hope I don't jinx you].

Btw that guy/girl from UCLA is insane to mention a retake. – WhateverItTakes

2 years of work experience after college (manager of a large construction/engineering firm).

I appreciate the well wishes! – NUhopeful2010

you give hope to the strugglers. good luck. I hope you do amazing on your cycle.

Any classes in college help contribute to that lsat score? – hopeful

I don't know about classes during college, but my philosophy degree certainly helped overall.

I'm a logical positivist (meaning I reject naturalism, Kantian intuition, etc), so I think I've just always been this way.

Some of my GPA was simply damaged from professors not liking the way I wrote/thought (Once an A+ went to a B when I started challenging a professor's assertions about logical necessity/stupidity of deism).

Sure, I screwed up in college. It wasn't partying, drugs, or women that did it. I was simply bored by everything there once I realized it was the professor's opinion of me that dictated my marks. That spiraled into me finding things to do in my spare time (with which I'm still deeply involved).

I'd say, be a logical positivist A type personality. Generally no matter what happens you win, especially standardized tests. I honestly found the LSAT easy from day 1, but it took awhile to go from steady 170s to steady 178-180s.

My law classes, especially those in the actual law school I attended (which is very highly ranked and on that list above), always were A's.

I'd always suggest to people that if you find yourself starved for intellectual stimulation, don't look to education as the answer. I would do things differently though if I could do it again. I would certainly "play the game" better. – NUhopeful2010

I dont believe we have talked, but thanks for telling me I will unsuccessful in my chosen field. I wish you an equally unfulfilling time as well. Good luck in your cut throat law school existence. – JDhopeful2009

Cut throat is good.
I'd walk over piles of dead bodies to end up where I want to be, doing merger/acquisitions and regulatory compliance for a top Hong Kong firm :) – NUhopeful2010

Well, I've been doing better with only a week of studying. I got in the lower 150s without studying. It's improved several points since then. I never anticipated getting a 178, and if you received that score without studying, that's insanely impressive, bud.

Also, I'm sorry if my GPA makes you think that they hand out 4.0s at state universities. I have a high GPA because I actually enjoy my program and work to maintain it. I wish I were a genius and able to get a LSAT score like yours without much effort, but that's life. I'll just have to study a lot to make up for my stupidity, so I can possibly get into my top schools.

Good luck on your cycle, though! I think that you'll be able to get into a T25. I'm pretty certain UIUC/IU/BU would accept you, as it is currently. As for T14, I think you'll have a difficult time there because of your GPA. I would play your engineering interests to your advantage in the application or add an addendum. Keep in touch!

P.S. State schools are not that terrible :). – jahallc

Maybe this cycle if applications increase significantly it may be hard. Generally though, I would have a 80-90% chance of at least getting into 1 good T14 school (Northwestern seems like it's in the bag, but let's not get ahead of ourselves).

I really do think some state schools pass out easy As to people that just show up sometimes. Something I struggled to find at my undergrad.

I plan to do a damn good application package for the T14. Including tons of schematics/prototypical examples, pictures of current projects I'm finishing up before law school, etc.

I did study for about 8 months for the LSAT. I'm pretty sure worst case scenario, GULC's part time will take me. – NUhopeful2010

I definitely think you can get into a T14 school. People have gotten accepted with the same index scores you have right now. I'm just saying that it will be difficult to get accepted to several because of your GPA.

I think part-time at GULC is a viable option. I would say you have the best shot there than almost any other T14 program. Like you said, create an immaculate application, and you will be golden. If I can help out in any way during your cycle, let me know. Even though I'm from a shitty state school, I can still hopefully give some good criticism on your applications when the time comes.

Also, I agree that some state schools essentially hand out As. There are classes like that at my school, but those classes exist at many universities if you know what/who to look for when registering for courses.

Cheers!

P.S. I just looked at the rest of your wall. Apparently, UCLALawStudent has not done much research at all on acceptances into T50 schools. – jahallc

Wow, your GPA fucking sucks, but your LSAT score is off the charts-- close to genius level. You are what, a graduate from Yale? Top school. Just make sure your letters of rec say why your GPA is so shitty. You will probably get into UVA or Michigan probably not Duke and waitlisted at Northwestern. Scrap the part-time programs-- waste of time. Anything below GW is probably a solid admittance. If you get into law school, just don't fuck it up. – anonymous

I'm pretty devoted to law school and always have been. I'm quite certain I can place in the top 10% first year anywhere on the above list.

The best way I can describe my GPA is as a mid-life crisis, just at 20 years old. I spent the time resolving a large range of interests and projects I wanted to work on.

If you can imagine someone bored by college not because of lack of material, but because of the lack of original thought, that would have been me.

GPA has always been a piss poor indicator of intelligence/work ethic. It often reflects, especially in majors like philosophy, a person's willingness to satisfy norms rather than actual knowledge gained or ambition.

I'm sure once I finish up my last engineering project till after law school, which will definitely get me quite a bit of press, law schools will understand the above – NUhopeful2010

from reading your posts, you're an arrogant prick. good luck getting into schools with your shitty grades albeit ~perfect LSAT score. What type of Ivy did you graduate from that you didn't earn at least a 3.5 for showing up to class. Man, and I thought Brown was ~hard, lolz. you're so sure you'd be in the top 10% of your law school, haha, you're actually hilarious~ keep telling yourself that though. you'll get into Indiana at best. BTW, you're a fool if you actually think that schools are gonna be falling all over you b/c of your LSAT score, they have plenty of kids who score 169-180 with perfect grades... – anonymous

I think I was just super nervous both times I took the LSAT. I can't remember; it was ages ago now. LSAT isn't everything and my score didn't help or hurt me in the end so I really don't care.

Good luck with your apps. – not

I see another person who hasn't done much research on school acceptances vs scores showed up. Please stop assuming silly things.

There's never been a single example of someone with a score this high (no matter their GPA) that didn't get into a T20 school... since the website was created.

Stop whining. Seriously don't be jealous because I "fixed" my mistakes on the LSAT.

Technically only about 40 people a year score a 180. Just FYI about "tons of people" out there.

If you care, my undergraduate's median GPA for graduates is a 3.1 ish. Average ACT acceptance score for entering freshman was a 32.

Mind providing any examples of people "only getting into Indiana" with a low GPA and 177+ LSAT? Every sample I can find they get into at least one T14 school.

People need to get over the "bitterness" towards splitters. I didn't finish my UG with a 3.8 because I couldn't "do the work". I just didn't care to do it when I was younger. Not to mention only about 0.2% of LSAT test takers match/outscore me each year.

– NUhopeful2010

I really think in the end it was probably nerves which did it for me. The first time was definitely exhaustion, in the week leading up to my first LSAT I took a practice test every day. As for the second one, it was probably nerves as well... I was sitting the test with my ex (with whom I was super competitive). I think I was just in a terrible mind set for both exams and couldn't get past the kind of mental state you need to be in for it.

I think test day circumstances were too different to my practice test circumstances too. I took a prep course, but sat the practice tests at different times to the rest of the course so I was always alone in the room when I practiced.

I didn't write an addendum for my scores because it's just a lot of excuses for me. In the end I couldn't get a hold of my nerves and couldn't focus on the test. This might be your friend's problem.

Thanks for the congrats. I can't believe it either... – not

they made me work for it! I wrote the extra hold essay and submitted a total of 5 LORs, 4 LOCIs and stayed up at weird hours (due to time zone) to call them.

Your LSAT is going to help you a lot... write an amazing PS and maybe I'll see you at Chicago in 2010 :) – not

lolz, let's see people with scores similar to yours, one IS going to Indiana and the other one got waitlisted at UNC and Northwestern, and miraculously got off the waitlist. If you actually believe that the other person with a 1.72 got into Georgetown, then you're actually a fool.

"If you care, my undergraduate's median GPA for graduates is a 3.1 ish. Average ACT acceptance score for entering freshman was a 32."

You must have gone to one of the bottom Ivies.

And LOLz, no I didn't get a ~177, I'm not as smart as you~ I got a 167 instead and I'm going to UChicago. Good luck Einstein.

– anonymous

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/Charlottetalks

4 points lower than me and got into UoC, Vandy, GULC

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/bigpoppanate

6 points lower and lower GPA than me and half ride into South Methodist.

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/trivialine

One point lower than me... got into NU.

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/Lucky123456

One point lower than me. Got into Columbia.

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/gocards

4 points lower than me and got into UoV.

I can't actually find anyone that "got into Indiana".

You didn't go to UoC with a 167. Not unless you also slept with the Dean of Admissions.

You likely would get turned down to every T14 with a 4.0/167... at least statistically. – NUhopeful2010

Sounds like what little time you don't spend bragging, you spend making excuses. I bet you are just a joy to hang out with and have tons of friends. No doubt you will be admitted to a great law school and find yourself surrounded by many others just like you. Have fun. Good luck in life. – anonymous

I think NUHopeful does have a legit chance of getting into Duke, the University of Vagina, Northwestern, or Michigan. The low GPA doesn't really matter if he can supplement the material with a good personal statement and letters of rec. If you score a 178 on the LSAT, this is a pretty ridiculous score. The guy is obviously intelligent. Besides, a t14 is bound to take him. There isn't much risk involved, but they gain a lot if he is a genius lawyer. The LSAT is an awesome test. I would take a 178 LSAT score and 2.0 GPA versus a 4.0/ 160 LSAT. – Dave

how did I get roped into this?

I'd like to think I gave the adcomms more pleasure from reading my hold essays and PS than I would've from sleeping with them...

Either way, don't worry about stats, and I'm sure the T-20 is a lock (and that WUSTL will offer you moneys, I know someone with 167/3.2 who was accepted with $ there). Just don't fuck up your PS and T-14 will be in your reach as well. – not

I think many many people would take a 2.x GPA and a 178+ LSAT over a 4.0/165. You open a lot more doors, simply because moving the LSAT score "up" is much harder than moving the average GPA up.

This is why law schools value the LSAT upwards of 80% of the admission criteria.

not
Not trying to rope you into anything. Anon is just an annoyance.
My PS and application package (including many engineering projects, publications etc) should be pretty much top notch.

I really do appreciate the encouragement. You did a great job getting into UoC. – NUhopeful2010

is your app ready? How soon are you going to apply? I know they say get them in early, but it REALLY helped for me to get mine in early, and if I could do it again, I'd submit them even earlier. – not

My apps (most of them) should be out by mid October at the latest (my Early Decision will be out earlier).

Hopefully as soon as possible for many of the T14. – NUhopeful2010

why are you applying to UNC? Isn't that "below" you, Mr. Top Notch? – anonymous

It's called a safety school. – NUhopeful2010

I have only taken the lsat twice. Lol. I am asking myself if law school is for me. However, I am postive that I could do the work if I got accepted. My gpa is low because when I first started school, I was not serious at all. Thanks for the feedback. – prince662

haha good luck i know this means a lot to you – Freakmonger

Wow, splitter for sure. Good luck on your app, I'm planning/hoping to have similar stats (GPA a little higher, but I haven't gotten to that elusive 175+ yet).

I'll definitely be following you this cycle. What did you write for your PS, and did you submit an addendum for your GPA? If so what did you write about?

My GPA situation is sort of similar in that I ended up immersing myself in non-profit and legislative work instead of holing myself up at home and reading 50 pages on game theory. :P – icedtea

Hi there,
Your LSAT score is obviously off the charts....I was wondering if you have any advice for nailing logic games? I do well on the other parts....a little slow but I have two months to get better before I take it in Sept. The logic games are frustrating. I use the books and do them over and over until my brain cant take anymore. What would you recommend? I have a 3.1 GPA...not the best so I need a great LSAT to get into a decent school...Im not shooting for a 170 but I need at least a 160. – akobrza

I have a similar situation as you of having ~3.0 GPA and trying to get into law school. From what I read all you did was go through practice tests? Was there any other sort of study method you went through to get your impressive score? Do you have any advise for taking the LSAT or applying to schools?

I sincerely hope you get into NU.

Hope to hear from you!

Josh – Josh

You should check the lawschoolpredictor.com. I heard that is a great indicator of your chances; just type in your numbers!! Make sure you include a very convincing addendum and ensure that all applications are flawless. Well done on the LSAT and I wish you the best. – GAIAtheCHEERLEADER

I'm in a similar situation as you. Same LSDAS GPA, Ivy, 175, Not URM, and decent softs. Keep us up to date. Realistically though Columbia/NYU is not going to happen, but hey it could be the best 65 dollars you ever spend right? – Clement

"GPA ... often reflects, especially in majors like philosophy, a person's willingness to satisfy norms rather than actual knowledge gained or ambition."

I agree with this statement. I graduated with a philosophy degree from a top public school. The formula for an A paper goes something like: exposition of philosophical problem, illustrative examples with commentary, stated opinion with supporting argumentation, potential objections, rebuttal of potential objections, conclusion. yay.

So you're a logical positivist? I couldn't stand analytic by the time I graduated. This led to my blowing off my major courses in order to devote far more time to continental and cultural studies.

What are some of these engineering projects you've mentioned?

PS I read the UCLA commenter as sarcastic, at least starting off, but then unable to maintain the sarcastic tone and bleeding over into more basic discourse.... – Tyler

It's been a while since you commented on mine, but anyways...I wasn't planning on getting into HYS or CCN, but I figured it's worth the application. Good luck during this cycle, I hope NW will completely overlook the GPA. – walker721

NU Hopeful
Haven't been checking this board lately, but please accept a belated thank-you for your June 17 post. Three questions:
1. Did your timing improve naturally with increased exposure to questions and concepts on the LSAT?
2. Do you think that your degree in phil helped you on the LSAT...if so, any recommendations for books or concepts that could be developed outside the classroom?
3. How were you scoring on the first several of the fifty preptests? – W Graves

My GPA is slightly lower than yours, believe it or not, and I got a 176. I applied toward the end of last cycle and was held at NU until the very end but didn't get in. I didn't make a LSN profile but no other T14 kept me on their WL for very long.

I have a T30 acceptance at a cheap public school in my part of the country, but I just thought it unwise to attend this year. The economy is terrible and I think you can never have too much time to prepare for 1L exams. (Other people will make fun of this attitude, but I'll do what I think will work for me...)

I'm applying to T14s real early this cycle. I'm not sure if it will make a difference. If NU didn't take me last year, I don't see why they will this year. You have a marginally better shot than I do, and perhaps that will be enough to put you over the top.

In your case, because of your unique background, I think it couldn't hurt to apply to Yale. The chance is very low, but if you can say something special in your personal statement, you might get lucky.

As for LSAT performance, I'm a bit disappointed that I didn't "rise to the occasion" on the actual exam after posting several consecutive 180s in practice. For those who are studying for the LSAT right now, all I can say is that it is a relatively easy and predictable test. The difference between the high and low 170s is a matter of mechanical efficiency.

Therefore, LSAT performance may not be particularly relevant to law school performance or fitness to be an attorney, but I still think it matters. The LSAT is learnable. If you're willing to mortgage your life to take a series of high-stakes exams that are significantly less predictable, you should at least be able to show you can learn the LSAT. – Lefty

Wow. People certainly have a lot to say about your business. Whatever.

Good luck! – Lschool10gurl

Hey NU, why haven't you applied yet? Or are you not posting those details? – wks2009

lol, nuhopeful, are u ashamed u were incorrect about ur assumptions about how good you were? – monguetown

Ivy League? YOU WENT TO DUKE. I am sure the adcoms are going to figure out how retarded and unworldy you are ...and that this major character flaw along with ur unrealistic hubris, is the reason your gpa is so low. – monguetown

I hope you do well, if only because of that diffuse benevolence through which I see every stranger's endeavors. I'm only commenting because I find your arrogance contemptible--the assumption that you'll write and think better than 90% of your peers, that a user who started a nationally-known business is relevantly analogous to you as an applicant (lucky123456), that your undergraduate classes were beneath you. Good luck. – CaranDache

howd u do? ed at northwestern? – tester

Good luck on your applications! I'm sure you're going to get into some great schools!

I felt the need to post since I seen so many negative posters on your wall. Personally, I think many of them are simply jealous. I think it's awesome that you got such a high score. You give people like me hope! :)

I definitely wish you the best and I'm almost positive you'll be able to get into a T20 school. – toy1986